‘Social Media Reward Unhealthy Conduct’: An Interview with Ellen Pao | by Claudia Dreifus



Ellen K. Pao, 2016

David Paul Morris/Bloomberg by way of Getty Photographs

Ellen Okay. Pao, 2016

Ellen Okay. Pao was an unlikely troublemaker. A graduate of Princeton, Harvard Regulation Faculty, and Harvard Enterprise Faculty, she was employed in 2005 by Silicon Valley’s main enterprise capital agency, Kleiner Perkins. Earlier than very lengthy, this electrical engineer, lawyer, and Mandarin speaker made accomplice.

Up to now, so anticipated. However in 2012, after she and different ladies executives have been handed over for promotion, Pao filed a discrimination lawsuit towards the corporate, claiming amongst issues, sexual harassment, exclusion, and retaliation.

Three years later, the case lastly went to trial. Within the media reporting of that pre-#MeToo second, Pao discovered herself depicted as an entitled ingrate who was making the most of discrimination legal guidelines meant to guard the much less privileged. The jury sided with Kleiner Perkins.

It was all a bruising expertise that examined her mettle and altered her worldview. “It made me see that top tech and enterprise capital have been problematic industries,” she informed me once we spoke, just a few days in the past.

That perception was one which guided the following step in her profession, when she joined the social media and chat web site Reddit in 2013. After she turned interim CEO, in November 2014, she tried to take what she noticed as problematic about her personal firm. However the dominant ethos of Silicon Valley—one which mirrored the libertarian values of its billionaire male executives and which had not too long ago been brutally enforced by the Gamergate affair—meant that Pao’s new insurance policies barring revenge porn and on-line bullying led to a vicious backlash: greater than 200,000 Reddit customers signed a petition calling for her elimination. Pao resigned, leaving the corporate in July 2015.

5 years later, a lot has modified. She now runs a nonprofit she based known as Undertaking Embrace, which consults for know-how corporations, serving to them to attain range and equity of their hiring. (The Craig Newmark Basis and Hollywood’s Time’s Up basis are amongst her funders.)

Extra startlingly, the titans of Silicon Valley at the moment are on the defensive: Fb is underneath rising strain to sort out the disinformation that has swamped its web site; Twitter is asterisking the president’s tweets after they don’t meet prescribed requirements; and Google now faces a significant antitrust go well with from the Division of Justice.

Amid this, Pao has emerged as a essential eminence within the tech business, a visionary who was forward of her time in attempting to tame its worst impulses. Her essays seem in The Washington Submit, Time journal, and Vox’s re/code; and in 2017, she revealed a memoir, Reset: My Battle for Inclusion and Lasting Change.

As People ready to vote in a traditionally consequential election—one by which social media and digital communication amid a pandemic could have had incalculable affect—she and I spoke at size by way of Zoom. An edited and condensed model of the dialog follows.


Claudia Dreifus: In your writings and speeches, you generally describe social media as a sort of Paradise Misplaced. What do you imply?

Ellen Pao: Effectively, the social media websites have been began with this concept that extra dialog was an ideal factor. There was this grandiose imaginative and prescient that you might have one thing that unified and related the world. However the founders of those companies—Fb, Twitter—got here from, for need of one other time period, privilege.

They have been white males, usually with restricted life experiences and myopic views. For them, speaking on the Web was an ideal factor.

When issues began to emerge, they didn’t expertise them and they also didn’t take them as severely as they need to have. Some of the apparent was that girls, non-binary, Black, Latinx, and indigenous individuals have been being harassed, bullied, and pushed off the Web. The platforms have been internet hosting these actually one-sided conversations that have been usually racist and misogynistic.

All this was taking place on the similar second that these corporations have been searching for to encourage person engagement. Effectively, what drives that? It’s usually battle and anger. The platforms turned the scene of screaming matches. We received divides as a substitute of bridges. It’s really how, I believe, we ended up with a variety of the white supremacy you see on-line today.

Wasn’t white supremacy ubiquitous lengthy earlier than the Web?

Folks hid it extra. And there was in all probability much less of it round.

What was new was that social media allowed these voices an even bigger and greater platform. White supremacists really recruited from the websites. At one level someone wrote that Reddit was the largest supply of recruits for one of many white supremacist teams.

My level is that due to social media, the supremacists stopped hiding. That was an enormous change. I blame the platforms for it.

Can a variety of the dangerous stuff be attributed to the anonymity that’s permitted on the Web? Folks don’t have to present their actual names or stand behind what they are saying. Would requiring verifiable actual names be useful?

I believe that may have helped, say, eight years in the past. Right this moment, persons are now not hiding behind anonymity. We’ve received these parades of white supremacists who aren’t carrying hoods and aren’t afraid of being photographed. And they’re proudly sharing it on their Fb feeds. There’s no stigma or disgrace. I don’t suppose individuals care anymore about whether or not their names are connected to essentially adverse content material.

Simply this month, after years of lobbying by human rights organizations, Mark Zuckerberg introduced he was going to bar Holocaust denial from Fb. Many puzzled what took him so lengthy…

I learn that it’s taken them ten years to get this. Two years in the past, Mark Zuckerberg mentioned one thing like, “Hey, everyone has a proper to their opinions, and you’ll have an opinion that the Holocaust didn’t occur.”

The Holocaust is a reality, not an opinion.

Have social media executives been reluctant to curb hate speech on their platforms?

They discuss how they don’t need hate. And so they did take down posts from ISIS. However in the case of white supremacy and a few of the different types of bigotry, it’s generally been useful for them to have it. It creates extra engagement. It drove some customers to spend so much of time on their platforms, which meant you might depend on them to create free content material and improve your person engagement numbers. These numbers, in flip, might be used to promote adverts and lift cash from buyers.

Why gained’t the management on the social media corporations set up stronger requirements for what seems on their websites?

It’s difficult. The executives don’t need to act as if they will management it as a result of they concern that admission might result in authorities regulation. If they are saying, “Yeah, we might tweak these dials and rent some extra individuals to watch content material,” somebody would possibly ask, “Effectively, why aren’t you doing these items?” The very fact is that a variety of the websites, Fb particularly, have inconsistent moderation and unclear guidelines. That’s an issue they might repair.

Frankly, we’ve at all times had limits on free speech on the platforms. From day one, they removed spam. They removed baby pornography. After I was at Reddit, I led an effort to do away with unauthorized nude images and revenge porn. Right this moment, everybody accepts these shouldn’t be allowed. However 5 years in the past, after I proposed it, this was controversial. Not one of the large platforms had finished it as a result of they thought-about that their position was to be an open house totally free speech. However as soon as Reddit led the best way, the others—Fb, Twitter, YouTube, Microsoft—adopted.

Did that have present you that change was doable?

Completely. You realize, one motive I took on the position of Reddit CEO was as a result of I wished to do one thing about dangerous content material. Reddit had a few of the worst on the Web. I believed, “If Reddit could make adjustments, then different platforms will comply with.” And that’s what occurred. The others have been simply ready for another person to take step one.

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Ellen Pao with attorneys

Justin Sullivan/Getty Photographs

Pao with attorneys after a jury discovered towards her in her sexual discrimination go well with towards Kleiner Perkins, San Francisco, California, March 27, 2015

After the 2016 election, it was found that Fb had served as a launch pad for disinformation geared toward supporting Donald Trump’s candidacy. A consultancy associated to the Trump marketing campaign and funded by Robert Mercer, Cambridge Analytica, used entry to total chains of “associates” to use the private info of as much as 87 million Fb customers with a view to facilitate micro-targeted political messaging. Fb initially claimed it was not chargeable for the data-mining, although the corporate was finally compelled to pay a multibillion-dollar positive. However was the impediment to raised defending person privateness merely a know-how concern?

No. I imply, have a look at Fb and the assets that it has. They will affect stuff. It’s not as if as soon as one thing is constructed into the know-how, it’s by no means changeable. In tech, they’re continuously altering their know-how and they’re continuously paying down what we name “technical debt” which is the price of fixing unproductive technical issues. If some function doesn’t resolve long-term issues, that’s technical debt. Over time, you attempt to pay it down and repair it.

Right here, they’re saying both “This isn’t an issue” or “We don’t suppose this can be a sufficiently big drawback to placed on our to-do record.”

I imagine that Fb even despatched a marketing consultant to point out the information miners be more practical with their know-how. That reality alone makes you suppose they have been extra concerned than they’ve admitted.

And I’m certain the marketing consultant charged some sort of price for that service.

Frankly, the truth that Fb sells customers’ information is a part of its drawback. It might cease doing that. All it’s a must to do is flip off these utility programming interfaces (APIs), and that can shut off entry. At Reddit, after I was there, we had the chance to promote our information. As I researched it, I noticed that after you promote information, there’s no management over what occurs to it. We dropped the thought. Reddit now, I imagine, is promoting information. The present management is about driving revenues. You can also make some huge cash that means.

Do you suppose that related issues are taking place within the present election marketing campaign?

I don’t know this as a reality, however you possibly can assume they’re. So far as I do know, Fb took down two networks for Russian disinformation. In an earlier effort, Fb eliminated 13 accounts. I’m shocked by how small the takedowns have been and marvel what number of have been missed. I can’t think about that they [Russian and other foreign actors] simply gave up, however I haven’t heard of extra being taken down. Now, at Reddit, individuals would create new accounts and rebuild their followings in the identical means till we created a option to cease that from taking place. I haven’t heard of Fb taking cost that means. I think about they might have disclosed these removals and I haven’t seen something about it for the reason that finish of September.

You realize, each time an issue is recognized at Fb, the management claims they’ve modified it. Some time in the past, ProPublica, I believe, exposed how Fb’s adverts might be personalized in order that they discriminated towards African People searching for housing. The Fb management mentioned they have been going to alter that. However when individuals regarded once more, it hadn’t actually modified. Given the historical past, I don’t imagine that Fb has made adjustments that may forestall the issues of 2016 from recurring.

Twitter has began labeling a few of the president’s statements as presumably deceptive. The language in its warning goes, “Some or all the content material shared on this tweet is disputed and could also be deceptive.” Is that sufficient?

My frustration with Twitter is that it’s slightly bit too late.

Trump himself and his household’s accounts now have hundreds of thousands of followers. I empathize with Twitter’s executives. It’s not straightforward. After we have been making adjustments at Reddit, we discovered which you can’t change the entire thing without delay. If you happen to strive, you’re not going to have the ability to preserve your maintain over these adjustments. If you happen to attempt to do away with all the horrible content material at one time, individuals simply hold popping up all over the place, and also you simply can’t implement your guidelines sufficient to make them look like a rule. You do issues slowly, one piece at a time.

Ought to they kick the president off the platform?

You realize, in early 2017, Laura Gómez and I revealed a piece in re/code the place we mentioned, kind of, “Hey Twitter, it’s best to simply kick Trump off your platform. He’s violating each rule and inspiring harassment.”

When you might have somebody with such visibility violating guidelines, they’re instructing that guidelines don’t matter. The best way Twitter labored, Trump was getting rewarded with extra customers, extra views, extra publicity for his content material. His actions inspired others to attempt to learn the way far can they go as a result of his was a profitable path. My frustration with what Twitter is doing is that it’s slightly bit too late—notably in the case of limiting hate speech and harassment. Among the worst accounts now have hundreds of thousands of followers.

One factor Twitter might do proper now could be to cease selling some fairly dangerous accounts. Day by day, I get an e-mail from them selling an Eric Trump account. They don’t essentially need to ban his account, however they actually don’t need to amplify it.


Ellen Pao with Anita Hill

David Paul Morris/Bloomberg by way of Getty Photographs

Pao and Professor Anita Hill being interviewed for Bloomberg about sexual discrimination points, San Francisco, California, April 20, 2017

Did trolling and on-line harassment improve throughout Donald Trump’s presidency?

I’m certain it did. Time and again, his social media actions drove waves of consideration and violated Twitter’s guidelines. In doing that, he inspired others to do the identical. You ended up with worse and worse habits on that platform, and, I believe, in the true world.

I don’t say that evenly. The best way social media works is that dangerous habits will get rewarded. The websites are designed to amplify battle and outrage. It’s why Trump tweets the best way he does. Each time he posts one thing outrageous, it will get retweeted, favored, and shared—it amplifies the unique message and widens its attain. The media will cowl it, too. Abruptly, there’s a complete information cycle round a tweet as a substitute of a few of the precise issues of the nation.

What do you make of Melania Trump, the First Girl, designating on-line bullying as her signature concern? Is she trolling us—like when she went to examine immigrant detention facilities and wore a coat that mentioned “I actually don’t care. Do U?”

I don’t perceive that. And I don’t attempt to analyze it. I haven’t seen that she’s finished a lot. I’ve seen some PR messaging, however I haven’t seen something concrete.

I don’t imagine she’s met with the leaders of any of the platforms. I don’t suppose she’s met with Widespread Sense Media, the Anti-Defamation League, or any of the organizations working to fight on-line bullying and hate. I’m not likely certain what she’s finished apart from make a few press bulletins.

The New York Submit not too long ago revealed a narrative based mostly on unverified emails purporting to have come from Hunter Biden’s laptop computer. Maybe recalling how the platform was, in 2016, a middle for pro-Trump disinformation, Twitter brass blocked hyperlinks to the report. Then, after some Republican senators threatened an investigation, Twitter’s Jack Dorsey modified his thoughts, apologized, and claimed he’d made a mistake. What was that?

I believe it was concern of regulation. At Twitter, they have been in all probability attempting to stability their very own need to forestall doable misinformation from impacting the election with with the ability to run their enterprise as they at all times have.

This concern of regulation is what drives a variety of coverage change in Silicon Valley. This entire factor actually goes again to Silicon Valley’s executives needing to grasp what they need for his or her corporations. Is it clear guidelines that individuals perceive and may comply with?

While you’re in all places, it makes it very onerous for individuals to grasp what they’re allowed to do and what they aren’t. I do suppose that for those who’ve been doing a foul job of operating your corporation, you do want to alter. And for those who can’t do it in a great way, you’re going to get regulated anyway.

Some Silicon Valley leaders argue that one of the simplest ways to fight dangerous speech is extra speech. Are they proper?

Frankly, I believe the platforms select to advertise free speech every time it’s comfy or handy. Proper now, they’re in muddy water, dealing with anger from customers, politicians, and even their staff.

All people is aware of we have to take some content material down. You possibly can’t have individuals posting real-time shootings on Fb Stay. This brings public outrage and new requires regulation. It’s why the executives provide you with these convoluted rationalizations for what they’re doing.

You’ve been accused of selling censorship. How do you reply the cost?

I deny it. My hope is to get extra voices onto the platforms, not fewer. It’s about giving each voice a possibility to talk. If you find yourself pushing voices off the platform and solely the loudest voices are given house, you find yourself censoring everybody else. Proper now, you might have, in impact, censorship. It’s simply not express.

What do you suppose the tech world will appear to be after November 3?

In fact, I hope Biden wins. I’ve my fears about what the world will appear to be afterwards. It’s onerous to think about that in both state of affairs we’ll return to a relaxed functioning society.

My hope is that after Biden wins, the tech leaders will really feel extra comfy with managing a variety of the hate on their websites. I don’t know if that may occur, as a result of they’re simply so locked into rising engagement and pushing individuals to be increasingly enraged to generate that.

To return to my first query: whenever you first went to Silicon Valley within the Nineties, did you suppose it could grow to be this swamp?

It’s fascinating as a result of tech was purported to be this excellent, good, constructive factor—and it ended up being so poisonous. The other of what we aspired for it. Many individuals of my technology went to Silicon Valley as a result of we wished to alter the world, make it a greater place.

It’s unhappy. What we hoped would grow to be a unifier of society fragmented it much more.



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